Comments for Language Evolution http://languageevolution.wordpress.com A blog devoted to the evolution of language and cognition Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:17:01 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on I’m back baby… and the Spanish want to give Chimps human rights by Jesús Sanchis http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/im-back-baby-and-the-spanish-want-to-give-chimps-human-rights/#comment-394 Jesús Sanchis Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:17:01 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=90#comment-394 This new law is a bit contradictory in a country like Spain, where the rights of animals are not much respected in general (bullfighting, hunting, atrocious traditions of all kinds, etc.). It looks like one of these ultra-modern laws that appear from time to time in an unexpected place, e.g. a country like Spain. Let's remember that Spain was one of the first countries to allow gay marriage. But at the same time, Spain is probably the only country in Western Europe where smoking is still allowed in public places like bars, pubs or restaurants. It's difficult to know why these paradoxical things happen. And it's not clear why international organizations like the EU don't take action in the field of ape-rights protection of health issues. Why should these laws be different depending on the country? I post a comment in this blog for the first time. Now that I'm on holidays I'll have time to read more of the posts in this blog, which I find interesting. This new law is a bit contradictory in a country like Spain, where the rights of animals are not much respected in general (bullfighting, hunting, atrocious traditions of all kinds, etc.). It looks like one of these ultra-modern laws that appear from time to time in an unexpected place, e.g. a country like Spain. Let’s remember that Spain was one of the first countries to allow gay marriage. But at the same time, Spain is probably the only country in Western Europe where smoking is still allowed in public places like bars, pubs or restaurants. It’s difficult to know why these paradoxical things happen. And it’s not clear why international organizations like the EU don’t take action in the field of ape-rights protection of health issues. Why should these laws be different depending on the country?

I post a comment in this blog for the first time. Now that I’m on holidays I’ll have time to read more of the posts in this blog, which I find interesting.

]]> Comment on I’m back baby… and the Spanish want to give Chimps human rights by Jesús Sanchis http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/im-back-baby-and-the-spanish-want-to-give-chimps-human-rights/#comment-393 Jesús Sanchis Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:16:19 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=90#comment-393 This new law is a bit contradictory in a country like Spain, where the rights of animals are not much respected in general (bullfighting, hunting, atrocious traditions of all kinds, etc.). It looks like one of these innovative, modern laws that appear from time to time in a country like Spain, which is a rather unexpected place for this kind of things. Let's remember that Spain was one of the first countries to allow gay marriage. But at the same time, Spain is probably the only country in Western Europe where smoking is still allowed in public places like bars, pubs or restaurants. It's difficult to understand why these paradoxical things happen. And it's not clear why international organizations like the EU don't take action in the field of ape-rights protection of health issues. Why should these laws be different depending on the country? This is my first comment in this blog, which I find quite interesting. Now that I'm on holidays (in Mediterranean Spain!) I'll have more time to read previous posts. This new law is a bit contradictory in a country like Spain, where the rights of animals are not much respected in general (bullfighting, hunting, atrocious traditions of all kinds, etc.). It looks like one of these innovative, modern laws that appear from time to time in a country like Spain, which is a rather unexpected place for this kind of things. Let’s remember that Spain was one of the first countries to allow gay marriage. But at the same time, Spain is probably the only country in Western Europe where smoking is still allowed in public places like bars, pubs or restaurants. It’s difficult to understand why these paradoxical things happen. And it’s not clear why international organizations like the EU don’t take action in the field of ape-rights protection of health issues. Why should these laws be different depending on the country?

This is my first comment in this blog, which I find quite interesting. Now that I’m on holidays (in Mediterranean Spain!) I’ll have more time to read previous posts.

]]> Comment on Evolang Post #5 – d’Errico and Bickerton by Nonsupporting http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/evolang-post-4-derrico-and-bickerton/#comment-391 Nonsupporting Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:59:10 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=83#comment-391 Somehow i missed the point. Probably lost in translation :) Anyway ... nice blog to visit. cheers, Nonsupporting. Somehow i missed the point. Probably lost in translation :) Anyway … nice blog to visit.

cheers, Nonsupporting.

]]> Comment on Evolang Post #5 – d’Errico and Bickerton by watercat http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/evolang-post-4-derrico-and-bickerton/#comment-379 watercat Sun, 04 May 2008 01:03:13 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=83#comment-379 Well, the issue isn't the medium but whether words or syntax came first, and DB has always defined proto-language as lacking any syntactic structure. His attempt to refute Wray's holophrastic stage, which ignores the gestural components of language, leaves him baffled about how the hearer could assume a pronoun 'referred to a female beneficiary'---that the speaker would be pointing at! Using their example, you can't gesture just “give”, you can only gesture the holophrastic phrase [give| agent, beneficiary]. Speech, sign, and gesture all indicate arguments by pointing, because the symbol grounding problem is nearly insurmountable otherwise. The deWaal study shows that even wild Bonobos do this, making their “help” gesture as a directional proto-verb with movement from subject to object. This is clear hierarchical structure, before the advent of words, yet Bickerton insists that this stage of evolution was followed by one with words but no structure, and then a further stage where the structures re-appear. Well, the issue isn’t the medium but whether words or syntax came first, and DB has always defined proto-language as lacking any syntactic structure. His attempt to refute Wray’s holophrastic stage, which ignores the gestural components of language, leaves him baffled about how the hearer could assume a pronoun ‘referred to a female beneficiary’—that the speaker would be pointing at! Using their example, you can’t gesture just “give”, you can only gesture the holophrastic phrase [give| agent, beneficiary]. Speech, sign, and gesture all indicate arguments by pointing, because the symbol grounding problem is nearly insurmountable otherwise. The deWaal study shows that even wild Bonobos do this, making their “help” gesture as a directional proto-verb with movement from subject to object. This is clear hierarchical structure, before the advent of words, yet Bickerton insists that this stage of evolution was followed by one with words but no structure, and then a further stage where the structures re-appear.

]]> Comment on Evolang Post #5 – d’Errico and Bickerton by languageevolution http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/evolang-post-4-derrico-and-bickerton/#comment-378 languageevolution Sat, 03 May 2008 07:37:00 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=83#comment-378 I agree with you completely. To be honest, I suspect that to a certain extent Bickerton might do too. Although he would frame it by saying it doesn't matter whether protolanguage is gestural or spoken (see Bickerton's "A Brief Guide to Language Evolution for Linguists"). I agree with you completely. To be honest, I suspect that to a certain extent Bickerton might do too. Although he would frame it by saying it doesn’t matter whether protolanguage is gestural or spoken (see Bickerton’s “A Brief Guide to Language Evolution for Linguists”).

]]> Comment on Evolang Post #5 – d’Errico and Bickerton by watercat http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/evolang-post-4-derrico-and-bickerton/#comment-377 watercat Fri, 02 May 2008 16:15:01 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=83#comment-377 A proto-language with only single words and no syntax contradicts the evidence. Pre-linguistic gesture, both in acquisition and in language creation, has semantic frames with clearly marked theta roles, null arguments, and other features. Children transfer part of this semantic frame to the spoken word and retain the rest in their co-speech gesture; they don't forget it all and then reinvent it later after producing their first word. It is more parsimonious to say pre-linguistic gesture evolved first, since we see it in other species. Then a simple iterative process for combining units, as in both linguistically trained apes and in humans without language, would have enabled Neanderthals to produce beads, craftwork and cultural traditions. A proto-language with only single words and no syntax contradicts the evidence. Pre-linguistic gesture, both in acquisition and in language creation, has semantic frames with clearly marked theta roles, null arguments, and other features. Children transfer part of this semantic frame to the spoken word and retain the rest in their co-speech gesture; they don’t forget it all and then reinvent it later after producing their first word. It is more parsimonious to say pre-linguistic gesture evolved first, since we see it in other species. Then a simple iterative process for combining units, as in both linguistically trained apes and in humans without language, would have enabled Neanderthals to produce beads, craftwork and cultural traditions.

]]> Comment on Linguistic tone and genetics by jim davis http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-375 jim davis Thu, 01 May 2008 00:43:10 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-375 Afternoon, and thanks so much for the input… (Sorry, what is your given name) I have been intrigued by this subject for a long time now but have had no one to discuss it with. By now I think that you might agree that we are not looking at an evolutionary advancement (magic bullet) so much as an environmental one. Keep in mind that we are talking about an anatomically modern human population. I’ve never thought much of the Aquatic Ape theory… seemed a little far-fetched… but what do I know? Yes, iodine is available all over the world and, from what I have read, tends to decrease as you go up in altitude from sea level. It resides in the soil and enters the food chain in the normal ways. The supplies can be inconsistent from place to place: being almost nonexistent in some places while in near by areas it can be more than sufficient for positive human development. One study I read (conducted in an iodine deficient area in China in the 90’s) showed results that would indicate that a fetus requires iodine as early as possible for optimum development. Once it is acquired in the necessary amount (very small) it does not seem to have any additional developmental advantage. This study identified results up to as much as a 10% IQ advantage over the subjects that did not receive it during incubation at all. This study group also had physiological problems that limited their quality of life. Subjects who received iodine in the 2nd or 3rd trimesters also had an IQ defecate (3 to 7%) when compared to those who received it during the 1st trimester. I don’t know but it would seem that for optimum effect you need a consistent source at or above the minimum requirement, for a period of 3 or 4 generations to begin see the kind of advancements, and sudden population growth, that genetic migration trackers say they see. The sea seems to be the ideal, iodine rich, environment for this to take place. FYI the two links did not work Afternoon, and thanks so much for the input… (Sorry, what is your given name) I have been intrigued by this subject for a long time now but have had no one to discuss it with.

By now I think that you might agree that we are not looking at an evolutionary advancement (magic bullet) so much as an environmental one. Keep in mind that we are talking about an anatomically modern human population. I’ve never thought much of the Aquatic Ape theory… seemed a little far-fetched… but what do I know?

Yes, iodine is available all over the world and, from what I have read, tends to decrease as you go up in altitude from sea level. It resides in the soil and enters the food chain in the normal ways. The supplies can be inconsistent from place to place: being almost nonexistent in some places while in near by areas it can be more than sufficient for positive human development.

One study I read (conducted in an iodine deficient area in China in the 90’s) showed results that would indicate that a fetus requires iodine as early as possible for optimum development. Once it is acquired in the necessary amount (very small) it does not seem to have any additional developmental advantage. This study identified results up to as much as a 10% IQ advantage over the subjects that did not receive it during incubation at all. This study group also had physiological problems that limited their quality of life. Subjects who received iodine in the 2nd or 3rd trimesters also had an IQ defecate (3 to 7%) when compared to those who received it during the 1st trimester.

I don’t know but it would seem that for optimum effect you need a consistent source at or above the minimum requirement, for a period of 3 or 4 generations to begin see the kind of advancements, and sudden population growth, that genetic migration trackers say they see. The sea seems to be the ideal, iodine rich, environment for this to take place.

FYI the two links did not work

]]> Comment on Major Language Evolution Papers # 3 by Evolang Post #4 - d’Errico and Bickerton « Language Evolution http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/major-language-evolution-papers-3/#comment-372 Evolang Post #4 - d’Errico and Bickerton « Language Evolution Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:09:25 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-372 [...] into linguistics, surfing on the general anti-Chomskian sentiment withing the room. He attacked the famous paper by Chomsky, Hauser and Fitch in which it was argued that the unique defining feature of human language faculty is the capacity [...] [...] into linguistics, surfing on the general anti-Chomskian sentiment withing the room. He attacked the famous paper by Chomsky, Hauser and Fitch in which it was argued that the unique defining feature of human language faculty is the capacity [...]

]]> Comment on Linguistic tone and genetics by languageevolution http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-371 languageevolution Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:48:21 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-371 Hmm, fascinating. Iodine is a developmental chemical, implicated in an awful lot of different parts of the body. Language is just affected as a peripheral system, it seems. Access to Iodine is therefore not specific to language defiencies, but is bloody developmentally important. + here's a couple of articles on iodine and evolution. Cunnane seems to be the only person who has published on thinks like this before. http://iodine4health.com/special/evolution/cunnane_evolution.htm http://iodine4health.com/special/evolution/venturi_evolution.htm Hmm, fascinating. Iodine is a developmental chemical, implicated in an awful lot of different parts of the body. Language is just affected as a peripheral system, it seems. Access to Iodine is therefore not specific to language defiencies, but is bloody developmentally important.

+ here’s a couple of articles on iodine and evolution. Cunnane seems to be the only person who has published on thinks like this before.

http://iodine4health.com/special/evolution/cunnane_evolution.htm

http://iodine4health.com/special/evolution/venturi_evolution.htm

]]> Comment on Linguistic tone and genetics by languageevolution http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-370 languageevolution Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:28:16 +0000 http://languageevolution.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/linguistic-tone-and-genetics/#comment-370 Jim, I'm fascinated by this idea, but agree, there's bugger all on it available on the internet. So a few questions we need to answer: How exactly does iodine deficieny affect language? Is it implicated as a developmental chemical or does it affect the day-to-day running of the brain? Do you know if it is affecting the brain, and thus language itself, or whether it impairs a related motor system? Is sufficient iodine available inland if you follow an average mixed diet? What is the effect of excessive iodine? Does it relationally improve development? Your idea reminds me a lot of the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis, a deeply unfashionable anthropological theory that is making a bit of a comeback at the moment. It argued that the common ancestor of the hominids went through an aquatic wading stage which gave birth to many of our modern features, walking upright, hairless bodies and crucially, the access to the oily fish allowed the brain to develop. Although, in relation to this post, I guess we are talking about a slow iterated process rather than a sudden evolutionary magic bullet (and evolution doesn't do 'magic bullets'). I does seem possible that access to iodine could have been a crucial factor in the development of language over an evolutionary timescale. I'll mention this to Dan Deidu when I next see him. Jim, I’m fascinated by this idea, but agree, there’s bugger all on it available on the internet. So a few questions we need to answer:
How exactly does iodine deficieny affect language? Is it implicated as a developmental chemical or does it affect the day-to-day running of the brain?
Do you know if it is affecting the brain, and thus language itself, or whether it impairs a related motor system?
Is sufficient iodine available inland if you follow an average mixed diet?
What is the effect of excessive iodine? Does it relationally improve development?

Your idea reminds me a lot of the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis, a deeply unfashionable anthropological theory that is making a bit of a comeback at the moment. It argued that the common ancestor of the hominids went through an aquatic wading stage which gave birth to many of our modern features, walking upright, hairless bodies and crucially, the access to the oily fish allowed the brain to develop.
Although, in relation to this post, I guess we are talking about a slow iterated process rather than a sudden evolutionary magic bullet (and evolution doesn’t do ‘magic bullets’). I does seem possible that access to iodine could have been a crucial factor in the development of language over an evolutionary timescale. I’ll mention this to Dan Deidu when I next see him.

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